Oh, Hell!

Lance Haverkamp

If you been watching any secular media coverage about Christianity in the last few months, you've no doubt heard that the Evangelical world is a buzz with discussions about Hell:

  • Is Hell real?
  • Does anyone go to Hell?
  • Is Universalism correct?
  • What is Reconciliation?

With Love Wins by megachurch pastor Rob Bell a huge hit, and other titles like Hope Beyond Hell by Gerry Beauchemin becoming closet classics; I thought you might enjoy a summary of Reconciliation teaching.  Please note that Reconciliation is not Universalism.
Below are just a few of many Bible verses that teach that all will come to Christ.  When this will happen we don't know, possibly after death and punishment. Feel free to agree or disagree, this article is so you can easily understand the basis for the debate without reading 200+ pages.

If anyone listens to my sayings, and doesn’t believe, I don’t judge him. For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. John 12:47

The next day, he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! John 1:29

They said to the woman, “Now we believe, not because of your speaking; for we have heard for ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world.” John 4:42

We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as the Savior of the world. 1 John 4:14

And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:2

For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.” John 6:33

And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” John 12:32

The angel said to them, “Don’t be afraid, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be to all the people. Luke 2:10

All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to Yahweh [Jehovah/God].
All the relatives of the nations shall worship before you. Psalm 22:27

All the earth will worship you,
and will sing to you;
they will sing to your name.” Psalm 66:4


For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all mankind, Titus 2:11

Now, I know what you're thinking...“that can't be what the Bible means because the Bible teaches eternal damnation in Hell for unbelievers.” But once you study what the ancient Greek and Hebrew Scriptures actually say, you'll see how wrong most English translations are about the torture in Hell forever.

The Bible never says people are sent to Hell

Hel (usually spelled with one l, not two) is from Norse mythology, the fictional story goes like this: Hel was the youngest of three children between the god Loki and a female jötunn (giantess) named Angrboda. When the gods kidnapped all three children, Hel was sent to Nifilheim (also called Niflhel, or Hel) which was the realm of the dead. She oversaw those who did not die in battle. She cared for those unfortunate enough to die from illness, accident, or old age; sharing whatever food she had with them. Hel was not a realm of punishment for evildoers, that concept was added hundreds of years later as the Norse mythology mixed with other beliefs. Hel is nowhere to be found in either the Hebrew or Greek Scriptures.

This more modern mythological place where evil-doers are punished forever in the afterlife is what we think of today when someone says Hell. There is a matching counterpart to the torturing punishment of modern Hell in Greek mythology, it's called Tartarus. Had the Apostles wanted to convey the idea of eternal torment, Tartarus would have been the blatantly obvious word that the entire Greek speaking world would have understood; but nowhere in the entire Bible are people sent to Tartarus. In fact, Tartarus is only mentioned once in the entire Bible—2 Peter 2:4; it says demons and Satan are sent there, not people, read it for yourself!

What is found in the Bible, inaccurately translated into Hell, is Gehenna, also known as the Hinnom Valley. It's a real, natural valley; south of the Temple, in Jerusalem. At the time, it was the Jerusalem city dump. Like most ancient city dumps (and many third-world city dumps today), it was constantly on fire. As new trash was added, it was fuel for the fire; it would keep burning because people kept adding trash, so it was never quenched. In Rome, the city dump had the nickname “the Lake of Fire.” Just like Gehenna, as new trash was added, the fire was fueled; and at night the tide of cinders and flames appears as a glowing, moving lake of fire. Neither the trash dump at Gehenna, nor the Roman “Lake of Fire” have any business being translated into the European mythological “Hell.”

The only place people are sent besides Heaven is Sheol in the Old Testament, translated into the mythological Hades (initially the Greek god of the underworld, and later the place of the dead) in the New Testament. Both Sheol and Hades were merely the dwelling place of the dead, and carried no concept of punishment whatsoever—let alone torture!

Forever” was added to the Bible when it was translated into Latin

There is a huge problem with the words translated as “forever” in both the New Testament and the Old. The root word in the New Testament Greek is Aion. The exact English translation is Eon, a non-specific measurement of time, usually many years. A good alternate would be Age; as in Iron Age, Bronze Age, or the Dark Ages.

The part of speech for a period of time is a noun. Hour or Month, for example, are nouns. In English you could make them adjectives by adding “ly” to the end, as in “hourly” or “monthly.” Obviously, changing them into adjectives doesn't change the length of time; an hour is still 60 minutes whether-or-not it has an “ly” at the end of it. You can do the same in Greek—you can change Aion from a noun to an adjective by adding “ios” to the end of the word. When the Bible was first translated into Latin, then into English, Aionios (the adjective form of Eon, or Age) was mistranslated into “Forever,” and most English translations still carry-on that mistake. If you look in a literal translation, like Young's or the Concordant, you will not see “forever,” you will see something like Eons or Ages.

As for the Old Testament, we see the Hebrew word “olam” in a number of books describing a finite period of time; but it's translated as everlasting or forever in Daniel 12:2. Translations vary, but most say something like: “Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” Olam simply can't be translated eternal, everlasting or never ending; at least not as we understand it because the exact opposite, finite, time frame is used throughout Scripture. If Olam meant forever, then:

  • Jonah would still be in the belly of the fish

  • Slaves would remain slaves even after they die

  • The Levitical and Aaronic priesthoods would be functioning forever

  • Jerusalem would be burning forever and Solomon’s Temple would still be standing where the Jewish people would worship God in that Temple forever, still making animal sacrifices, and continuing on forever (apparently in eternal flames?).

All these were described as “olam.” As you can tell, they all carry the concept of “it seemed like forever,” even though none of them really were forever, as we user the term today. The real problem is that neither the ancient Hebrews nor the ancient Greeks differentiated between “a long time” and “forever.” Jonah was only in the fish for three days, yet it was described using that same Hebrew word, olam, translated forever.

When the Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic Scriptures were first translated (into Latin), those non-specific words for a period of time, olam & aion(ios), were assigned Latin words that did specify either a finite or infinite time. That added details based on the doctrinal bias of the translators. We have no way of knowing which guesses they got right and which they got wrong. Obviously we can't base doctrine on someone's best guess—especially when those guesses express opposing points of view. So, is it safe to hang onto Danial 12:2 as Old Testament “proof” of eternal punishment? Of course not. The Hebrew simply doesn't support “eternal” punishment as we understand the term eternal; neither does the Greek. Many Theologians will argue that all these translations depend on context; and they do. But look for huge red flags like:

  • When opposite meanings are translated from the same source word

  • When there is not sufficient context

  • When no support for a particular translation exists outside of scripture

  • When the context they're relying on isn't in proximity, or isn't directly related

  • When they're main support is that their translation agrees with their own doctrinal position

Those are all strong indications of doctrinal bias coloring a translation. The early translators who drug their preconceived, mythological ideas about Hell into the Bible, did us a great deal of doctrinal damage. Nowhere in those ancient scrolls do we find this idea of people being tortured in Hell forever and ever. It was sloppy translating that still contaminates our doctrinal beliefs, even now, hundreds of years later.

That isn't to say that there is no punishment; universal salvation, where everyone gets a “pass,” is heresy. The Bible clearly teaches that there is punishment for those who reject Christ. But the Bible doesn't teach never-ending torture in Hell, that's Mythology.

The Bible does clearly teach that all are reconciled to God: “But all things are of God, who reconciled us to himself through Jesus Christ, and gave to us the ministry of reconciliation; namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not reckoning to them their sins, and having committed to us the word of reconciliation.” 2 Corinthians 5:18-19

Lance, I'm confused.  Are you saying you agree with this or are you just educating us on what is being
taught out there?   FYI, Rob Bell is a leader in the Emergent Church movement
and has come under criticism from evangelical watch dog groups.
They tend to go against traditional, orthodox historical Christianity.
Like sex before marriage is OK if you're really in love, etc.

George Hoherd
Life Coach - Cell: 719-570-9507
“Is any pleasure on earth as great as a circle of friends by a good fire?”
(C. S. Lewis)

FYI-I highly recommend AllaboutGod.com.

George Hoherd
Life Coach
Cell: 719-570-9507
“Is any pleasure on earth as great as a circle of friends by a good fire?”
(C. S. Lewis)

Click here to download:
BACK TO THE BASICS AND CULTS.wps (1.02 MB)

Thought you-all might like the attached.

George Hoherd
Life Coach
Cell: 719-570-9507
“Is any pleasure on earth as great as a circle of friends by a good fire?”
(C. S. Lewis)

Lance Haverkamp

Hi George & all,

As I said in the article: "Feel free to agree or disagree, this article is so you can easily understand the basis for the debate without reading 200+ pages."

Hmmm...

Let’s see what Jesus said:

    • a place of torment (Lk. 16:23)
    • a place of everlasting punishment (Mt. 25:46)
    • an unquenchable fire (Mt. 3:12)
    • a place of danger (Mt. 5:22)
    • a place of destruction (Mt. 10:28)
    • a place for the condemned (Mt. 23:33)
    • outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mt. 8:12)

I am so deeply saddened by our tendency in the western church to worship at the altar of our intellect. We bring the unsearchable wisdom of God down to principles and ideas that that fit neatly within the lines of our limited understanding or worse yet, we subscribe to a version of “Biblical truth that refuses to confront the culture.

God’s ways are not our ways as Job discovered thousands of years ago...

1 Then Job answered the Lord and said: 2 “I know that You can do everything, And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You. 3 You asked, ‘Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. 4 Listen, please, and let me speak; You said,​‘I will question you, and you shall answer Me.’

(the eyes of our intellect)

5 “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You. 6 Therefore I​abhor ​myself, And repent in dust and ashes.”

(the eyes of the heart)

Job 42:1-6

I believe it’s best to leave the matter of eternal judgment in God’s hands where it belongs. We are not experts on the mind of God, nor are we specialists in knowing the hearts of others. On the last day, when all men stand before God, His judgment will be righteous and absolute. All creation who stands in witness will say, Amen.

Meanwhile, rather than spending our time pondering the eternal judgment of the lost, why don’t we leave the comfort-zone of our simple church and go on a treasure hunt. There are those in our city who are dying to meet the real Jesus. It is to them we have been sent. They are the treasured ones Jesus came to seek and to save.

His plan is simple. Amass an army of ordinary people, send them through the routines of their daily lives, with an extraordinary message and a compassionate heart, eager to pray for the needs of others. This-is-church-as-God-wants-it. (simple church on spiritual steroids!) It’s dangerously exciting, and the kind of church most true believers want to be a part of.

Tell me about a gathering people experiencing the viral growth of God’s kingdom in Colorado Springs, and I’ll show you a church that can’t be stopped.

Paul Hilker
sphilker@gmail.com   



So I shouldn't ask questions?


From: Sphilker [mailto:sphilker=gmail.com@posterous.com] On Behalf Of Sphilker
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 9:14 AM
To: brad@arsenalbooks.com
Subject: [springschurch.net] Re: Oh, Hell!

Hmmm...

Let’s see what Jesus said:

    • a place of torment (Lk. 16:23)
    • a place of everlasting punishment (Mt. 25:46)
    • an unquenchable fire (Mt. 3:12)
    • a place of danger (Mt. 5:22)
    • a place of destruction (Mt. 10:28)
    • a place for the condemned (Mt. 23:33)
    • outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mt. 8:12)

I am so deeply saddened by our tendency in the western church to worship at the altar of our intellect. We bring the unsearchable wisdom of God down to principles and ideas that that fit neatly within the lines of our limited understanding or worse yet, we subscribe to a version of “Biblical truth that refuses to confront the culture.

God’s ways are not our ways as Job discovered thousands of years ago...

1 Then Job answered the Lord and said: 2 “I know that You can do everything, And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You. 3 You asked, ‘Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?’

Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. 4 Listen, please, and let me speak; You said,​‘I will question you, and you shall answer Me.’

(the eyes of our intellect)

5 “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You. 6 Therefore I​abhor ​myself, And repent in dust and ashes.”

(the eyes of the heart)

Job 42:1-6

I believe it’s best to leave the matter of eternal judgment in God’s hands where it belongs. We are not experts on the mind of God, nor are we specialists in knowing the hearts of others. On the last day, when all men stand before God, His judgment will be righteous and absolute. All creation who stands in witness will say, Amen.

Meanwhile, rather than spending our time pondering the eternal judgment of the lost, why don’t we leave the comfort-zone of our simple church and go on a treasure hunt. There are those in our city who are dying to meet the real Jesus. It is to them we have been sent. They are the treasured ones Jesus came to seek and to save.

His plan is simple. Amass an army of ordinary people, send them through the routines of their daily lives, with an extraordinary message and a compassionate heart, eager to pray for the needs of others. This-is-church-as-God-wants-it. (simple church on spiritual steroids!) It’s dangerously exciting, and the kind of church most true believers want to be a part of.

Tell me about a gathering people experiencing the viral growth of God’s kingdom in Colorado Springs, and I’ll show you a church that can’t be stopped.

Paul Hilker
sphilker@gmail.com   

LikeLike
That's what I couldn't tell from the article.
Were questions being asked or
were things being stated as fact.

 


From: "Brad Herman" <brad@arsenalbooks.com>
To: hoherds@comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 9:16:38 AM
Subject: [springschurch.net] Re: Oh, Hell!



So I shouldn't ask questions?


From: Sphilker [mailto:sphilker=gmail.com@posterous.com] On Behalf Of Sphilker
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 9:14 AM
To: brad@arsenalbooks.com
Subject: [springschurch.net] Re: Oh, Hell!

Hmmm...

Let’s see what Jesus said:

    • a place of torment (Lk. 16:23)
    • a place of everlasting punishment (Mt. 25:46)
    • an unquenchable fire (Mt. 3:12)
    • a place of danger (Mt. 5:22)
    • a place of destruction (Mt. 10:28)
    • a place for the condemned (Mt. 23:33)
    • outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mt. 8:12)

I am so deeply saddened by our tendency in the western church to worship at the altar of our intellect. We bring the unsearchable wisdom of God down to principles and ideas that that fit neatly within the lines of our limited understanding or worse yet, we subscribe to a version of “Biblical truth that refuses to confront the culture.

God’s ways are not our ways as Job discovered thousands of years ago...

1 Then Job answered the Lord and said: 2 “I know that You can do everything, And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You. 3 You asked, ‘Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?’

Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. 4 Listen, please, and let me speak; You said,​‘I will question you, and you shall answer Me.’

(the eyes of our intellect)

5 “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You. 6 Therefore I​abhor ​myself, And repent in dust and ashes.”

(the eyes of the heart)

Job 42:1-6

I believe it’s best to leave the matter of eternal judgment in God’s hands where it belongs. We are not experts on the mind of God, nor are we specialists in knowing the hearts of others. On the last day, when all men stand before God, His judgment will be righteous and absolute. All creation who stands in witness will say, Amen.

Meanwhile, rather than spending our time pondering the eternal judgment of the lost, why don’t we leave the comfort-zone of our simple church and go on a treasure hunt. There are those in our city who are dying to meet the real Jesus. It is to them we have been sent. They are the treasured ones Jesus came to seek and to save.

His plan is simple. Amass an army of ordinary people, send them through the routines of their daily lives, with an extraordinary message and a compassionate heart, eager to pray for the needs of others. This-is-church-as-God-wants-it. (simple church on spiritual steroids!) It’s dangerously exciting, and the kind of church most true believers want to be a part of.

Tell me about a gathering people experiencing the viral growth of God’s kingdom in Colorado Springs, and I’ll show you a church that can’t be stopped.

Paul Hilker
sphilker@gmail.com   

LikeLike
As we said in the 60s- "Right on!" brother.
George


From: "Sphilker" <sphilker@gmail.com>
To: hoherds@comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 9:14:16 AM
Subject: [springschurch.net] Re: Oh, Hell!

Hmmm...

Let’s see what Jesus said:

    • a place of torment (Lk. 16:23)
    • a place of everlasting punishment (Mt. 25:46)
    • an unquenchable fire (Mt. 3:12)
    • a place of danger (Mt. 5:22)
    • a place of destruction (Mt. 10:28)
    • a place for the condemned (Mt. 23:33)
    • outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mt. 8:12)

I am so deeply saddened by our tendency in the western church to worship at the altar of our intellect. We bring the unsearchable wisdom of God down to principles and ideas that that fit neatly within the lines of our limited understanding or worse yet, we subscribe to a version of “Biblical truth that refuses to confront the culture.

God’s ways are not our ways as Job discovered thousands of years ago...

1 Then Job answered the Lord and said: 2 “I know that You can do everything, And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You. 3 You asked, ‘Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. 4 Listen, please, and let me speak; You said,​‘I will question you, and you shall answer Me.’

(the eyes of our intellect)

5 “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You. 6 Therefore I​abhor ​myself, And repent in dust and ashes.”

(the eyes of the heart)

Job 42:1-6

I believe it’s best to leave the matter of eternal judgment in God’s hands where it belongs. We are not experts on the mind of God, nor are we specialists in knowing the hearts of others. On the last day, when all men stand before God, His judgment will be righteous and absolute. All creation who stands in witness will say, Amen.

Meanwhile, rather than spending our time pondering the eternal judgment of the lost, why don’t we leave the comfort-zone of our simple church and go on a treasure hunt. There are those in our city who are dying to meet the real Jesus. It is to them we have been sent. They are the treasured ones Jesus came to seek and to save.

His plan is simple. Amass an army of ordinary people, send them through the routines of their daily lives, with an extraordinary message and a compassionate heart, eager to pray for the needs of others. This-is-church-as-God-wants-it. (simple church on spiritual steroids!) It’s dangerously exciting, and the kind of church most true believers want to be a part of.

Tell me about a gathering people experiencing the viral growth of God’s kingdom in Colorado Springs, and I’ll show you a church that can’t be stopped.

Paul Hilker
sphilker@gmail.com   

LikeLike
Lance Haverkamp

Even if there wasn't any disagreement about whether the correct translation should be "eternal torture" or "lengthy correction", there are some enormous doctrinal issues here that none of us are addressing. If you go back to the Hebrew & Greek these folks are 100% correct in stating that:

  1. Hell is never found in the original texts
  2. The translators did drag Norse Mythology into the Bible
  3. The one and only time Tartarus is mentioned in scripture, people are not sent there, only Satan & demons.
  4. Jesus did say: "If anyone listens to my sayings, and doesn’t believe, I don’t judge him. For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world." John 12:47

Anyone want to argure those points?

----------------------------

Also Paul asked a great question:

"Meanwhile, rather than spending our time pondering the eternal judgment of the lost, why don’t we leave the comfort-zone of our simple church and go on a treasure hunt."

I'd say we must do both; because with Bell's book a best seller, and the secular media covering the topic, we need to be able to explain the debate to those very people we will find on that treasure hunt.

I suppose it depends on the heart. If my questions put God on trial, then my answer would be, “not a good idea.” I am the creature, He’s the Creator and sustainer of all things. I know in part, He knows everything. If he has spoken by His Spirit through His word, then I should be OK with what He plainly says.

If my inquiry comes from a place of spiritual hunger for God, then I would say, question away. I get that part of questioning as long as my heart is willing to accept His answers. Especially when His answer is no, or not yet.

Brad, I am responding to thirty-one years of intellectual mastery that took me places I had no business going. As you know, it took a nervous breakdown two years ago, for me to discover my heart. Until then, my mind was my master. When I could no longer reason, I discovered dimensions of God’s love I had never known. He was there all along, I just couldn’t see His love with the eyes of my mind in the way I saw it once I adjusted to my new way of seeing things. Once I was mentally incapable of reasonable thought, I learned to see with another set of eyes. It’s amazing how vision changes when the mind is gone.

Now that I have my mind back, I have a new vision. I see life more like a worm with a new set of eyes, than the eagle who used to be fixated on, what Job called, things too lofty for me to comprehend. I see God, myself, others, life’s circumstances, and the world in a way that keeps me free of carrying the weight of it all. I suppose I have a more child-like faith these days.

My new vision has silenced most of my questions. I no longer come from a place of an insatiable spiritual curiosity. I’ve accepted the limitations of my understanding, and trust that God knows all things, and will reveal those things to me that concern me, and my life of faith lived here in the boundaries of a broken world. Until the last day – then... Yup, I’ll know it all just like you will.

So, did I answer your question?

Paul Hilker
sphilker@gmail.com

Thanks for sharing your heart.

George Hoherd
Life Coach
Cell: 719-570-9507
“Is any pleasure on earth as great as a circle of friends by a good fire?”
(C. S. Lewis)


From: "Sphilker" <sphilker@gmail.com>
To: hoherds@comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 10:52:43 AM
Subject: [springschurch.net] Re: Oh, Hell!

I suppose it depends on the heart. If my questions put God on trial, then my answer would be, “not a good idea.” I am the creature, He’s the Creator and sustainer of all things. I know in part, He knows everything. If he has spoken by His Spirit through His word, then I should be OK with what He plainly says.

If my inquiry comes from a place of spiritual hunger for God, then I would say, question away. I get that part of questioning as long as my heart is willing to accept His answers. Especially when His answer is no, or not yet.

Brad, I am responding to thirty-one years of intellectual mastery that took me places I had no business going. As you know, it took a nervous breakdown two years ago, for me to discover my heart. Until then, my mind was my master. When I could no longer reason, I discovered dimensions of God’s love I had never known. He was there all along, I just couldn’t see His love with the eyes of my mind in the way I saw it once I adjusted to my new way of seeing things. Once I was mentally incapable of reasonable thought, I learned to see with another set of eyes. It’s amazing how vision changes when the mind is gone.

Now that I have my mind back, I have a new vision. I see life more like a worm with a new set of eyes, than the eagle who used to be fixated on, what Job called, things too lofty for me to comprehend. I see God, myself, others, life’s circumstances, and the world in a way that keeps me free of carrying the weight of it all. I suppose I have a more child-like faith these days.

My new vision has silenced most of my questions. I no longer come from a place of an insatiable spiritual curiosity. I’ve accepted the limitations of my understanding, and trust that God knows all things, and will reveal those things to me that concern me, and my life of faith lived here in the boundaries of a broken world. Until the last day – then... Yup, I’ll know it all just like you will.

So, did I answer your question?

Paul Hilker
sphilker@gmail.com

LikeLike
I guess. 
C'mon people. 

Rev 20: 10-15 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.  11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. NIV 

Do you prefer the translation "for ages and ages" instead of "for ever and ever"?

The same Greek word is used by Jesus in Rev 1:18.  When he says he is alive for evermore.  Do you think he will only live for an age or two?

Personally, I think God created time when he created the the world.  I don't think it will be the same in the next life. 

At any rate, the bible says that people will suffer for as long as Jesus lives and that should be enough to motivate us to reach the lost instead of debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Jim and Gail

Has this list still about house church in the Colorado Springs area, or has it become a forum for debating controversial doctrine?  If it is the latter, I have all kinds of stuff on the end times that would probably get me kicked off of this list...

Brad Herman
Good stuff.

George Hoherd
Life Coach
Cell: 719-570-9507
“Is any pleasure on earth as great as a circle of friends by a good fire?”
(C. S. Lewis)



From: "Gojs10" <gojs10@gmail.com>
To: hoherds@comcast.net
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 2:23:08 PM
Subject: [springschurch.net] Re: Oh, Hell!

C'mon people. 

Rev 20: 10-15 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.  11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. NIV 

Do you prefer the translation "for ages and ages" instead of "for ever and ever"?

The same Greek word is used by Jesus in Rev 1:18.  When he says he is alive for evermore.  Do you think he will only live for an age or two?

Personally, I think God created time when he created the the world.  I don't think it will be the same in the next life. 

At any rate, the bible says that people will suffer for as long as Jesus lives and that should be enough to motivate us to reach the lost instead of debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Jim and Gail

LikeLike
Lance Haverkamp

Hey Brad, long time no see,

My original post was merely a summary of the Reconciliationist position (from their perspective) for those who might want to know more about it, though you're right there seems to be interest in arguing the topic.  It is interesting that we see far more traffic in the group when debating the gray areas of Theology, than we do on house church topics:  We've asked several times for people to help compile a list of house church meeting locations and never received a single response---not even zipcode & phone number to help people find a local house.

But no, you can be a preterist, reconciliationist, arminian, anabaptist (or worse); and it still won't get you kicked-off the list.

Hey there.  Can somebody please tell me how to get off this email list?  Thanks!
That cool, Lance.  I personally haven't been doing house church for some time.  Kinda got burned out on Christianity as a meeting.  And just to place myself, I am looking into Preterism pretty heavily.  And not the unleaded version of it.

 

Bless you!

Brad


From: Lance Haverkamp [mailto:lance=springschurch.net@posterous.com] On Behalf Of Lance Haverkamp
Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 3:09 PM
To: brad@arsenalbooks.com
Subject: [springschurch.net] Re: Oh, Hell!

Hey Brad, long time no see,

My original post was merely a summary of the Reconciliationist position (from their perspective) for those who might want to know more about it, though you're right there seems to be interest in arguing the topic.  It is interesting that we see far more traffic in the group when debating the gray areas of Theology, than we do on house church topics:  We've asked several times for people to help compile a list of house church meeting locations and never received a single response---not even zipcode & phone number to help people find a local house.

But no, you can be a preterist, reconciliationist, arminian, anabaptist (or worse); and it still won't get you kicked-off the list.

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Lance Haverkamp

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